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His chest was gurgling and slurping. I have handgun hunted for over 25 yrs and enjoy it immensly, and also do a lot of reloading.IF a guy wants to carry a 45 or 9 or anything else and are comfortable and proficient with either, then why not? Why do I say that? Marine Force Recon Vietnam Vet. We traded all the 9s some years ago for the 40 which give knockdown power plus multiple rounds. He carries a nine personally currently because of the round capacity but in combat 45. As a non operator and someone who cant get to the range much an article I read made sense to me as simple as it may seem. The average criminal etc. Never shoot a large caliber man with a small caliber weapon. Durys Gun Shop has served San Antonio and the South Texas region for half a century. With that in mind The most lead I can force through the air, the better. Physics says my 225 grain .45 ACP ,+P+ traveling at 1210 fps is more capable than ANY 9mm currently available. They said, ja, the 9mm kills people just fine, as long as you use it the way anyone with any sense uses a pistol caliber. Hi, I have both. I know some are going to maybe chuckle but when I want a deep concealed handgun, I go with my PF9 Keltec. well lets fac the facts ere during th banna war the marines choose the 45 acp end of story. If these shootings have something in common, it is each and every one is different. As might be expected, larger-diameter bullets produce more devastating wound cavities and have a greater likelihood of striking vital organs. They also have a budget. The absolute best thing that anybody can do, find a pistol that suits you that you like, get a high capacity round, and train yourself in situational awareness so you dont have to worry about shooting somebody on accident. Fortunately or unfortunately I did shoot other humans with a 45 as close as 4 feet. If you notice in Police shootings, the gun is usually empty after the event is over. My department stopped using them in 45 cal because there were enough malfunction to stop. There are many fine little Girls Guns in 380 cal. Do you really think that all of SOCOM is using rifles and SMGs, and the Marines are using pistols? This is exactly what I said above. All three shots vital to heart and lungs. Now lets talk about wound cavities caused by different caliber handgun rounds. Because of the dynamic and chaotic nature of officer-involved shootings, officers are trained to shoot at center mass of an assailants torso from whatever side/angle of the torso that presents itself. The tests resulted in the selection in 1989 of the 10mm bullet as the most effective and accurate round for FBI agents to carry. This is because, unless you get a central nervous system hit extremely difficult there is no physiological reason a target would become incapacitated until blood loss and extreme loss of blood pressure occurs. As Sir Isaac Newton pointed out a few centuries ago, for every action theres an equal reaction in the opposite direction. Awareness of the injury (which often registers before pain), fear of death or greater injury, preconceived notions of what people do when theyre shot, as well as a simple desire to give up can all play a factor in psychologically incapacitating an attacker. The .45, for instance, is slightly slower than the 9mm, but features a more massive projectile, with 250 grains of mass compared to the 9mms typical 115 grains. Project: Aftermath Wiki. It enters the human body at energies approaching the speed of light and Dan, your and many others comments ring true. Is the debate on 9mm vs. .45 (or .40) settled then? The HRP is concerned with long-term health consequences of radiation exposure such as cancer, as well as adverse effects to the central nervous and cardiovascular systems. You have either been there, done that or you are a very common sense person. This whole conversation for over 2+ years is hilarious. Died instantly. WebAs shown in Fig. He sure has screwed us military retires over the last several years! As I have read your comments and, also read many debates including what science says. The wider bullet also creates a bigger cavity in whatever it passes through. I can say with great certainty that many animals dont just simply fall over and die. Better get that imagination under control, tough guy! At that long distance, the .223 will slam into its target with almost twice the speed of the .22. Well judging by the fact that .45 has been killing people since at least the 1870sI'd say it can really screw up your day. I like both, so it is a matter of how balanced and comfortable is it when in use ? I like the P227 better. I know a LEO that works in Mendocino County CA. The round severed Platts brachial artery, passing through the arm into his chest and almost entirely through his right lung. So, yes, they are looking at it with the assumption that modern 9mm JHP bullets perform very similarly to .40s&w and .45acp, and thus will move toward 9mm loadings for sidearms. I also reload/handload have shot competitively and have hunted all my life. Id use either! If you have been hit with any kind of bullet large, fast, expanding, or otherwise please fill out our survey about your experience after being shot. For this reason, jacketed hollow point (JHP) ammo is the only realistic choice for those who carry a handgun for self-defense. Though the patient survived and only had a small wound, he suffered extensive contusions throughout his lungs. So anyone reading this, you should check this gun out. I even tried to do the same test with my Tuger SR9 compact and it was a worse outcome than the Walther. Damage: 23. If it doesnt get deleted for my impatience with thoughtless comments. It may take 2 rounds to take someone down, but the shooter will have a lot easier follow up shots with the smaller 9mm. Most of the ballistic testing I have seen comparing the penetration of various bullets and calibers would suggest that generally, a .45ACP and 9mm are both quite comparable as far as penetration is concerned. Pistols are primarily used for close combat. These features, along with superb marketing efforts, have made the 9mm the round of choice, not only for the armed forces, but also for most police departments in the U.S. and departments. Of these, the hollow point round is the most common and effective. Real world combatants or keyboard commandos. Copyright 2023 Its only popular because of the name brand, not the true performance against other guns. I seem to recall reading in Rangemaster newsletter a month or two ago an FBI paper making the FMJ case. Thats right George. She said she shot him. However, there are two factors virtually everyone agrees on: 1. Thank you Bill ! Your shot placement will be perfect. I use a 1911 as thats what I learned on, prefer the way it feels in my hand. What it really boils down to is budget, not protection. Im sorry but a 225 grain bullet going 850 1200+ fps vs a 127 grain bullet going 975 1150 fps is going to be more effective and deadly. One of the best ammo in the market right now is Hornady Critical Dury which is 135 gr. I can not remember a single specific instance of someone shot with JHP, where I knew for a fact at the time what I was looking at. This pits apples to apples and will once and for all lay to rest all this ludicrous debate. If you need to kill someone with a single shot, a rifle is what you need, not a handgun.. The .45 acp bounced off the helmet at 35 yards while the 9mm penetrated the helmet at an astonishing 125 yards proving that the 9mm with its higher velocity, flatter Sadly, most government decisions like this are primarily based on cost effectiveness, not cartridge performance or effectiveness; thats the main reason I quit using military or LE decisions as a factor in my own carry decisions. Bullet coursing from behind the knee to my heel. WebAnswer (1 of 16): It does vary, but most of the time a 5.56mm rifle cartridge will have much more destructive potential than a .45 caliber pistol load does. All the scientific debates the fact is both are great but its interesting to me as a marine my understanding that the 45 was developed for the jungle warfare against drugged up Muslim extremist in the Philippines inthat timeframe and then fast forward to Falluja drugged up Muslims extremist And everybody Marines wanted 45 again In real situations Where it matters most I just wrote my friend who is in the thick of - and Falluja lost an arm multiple casualties and his answer was quick and simple 45. You prefer the .45 for stopping power? Model. This gave the enemy a chance to still bury a spearhead in the shooters chest, before finally collapsing from internal damage and blood loss. For the better part of a decade, working on the streets in 2 of the 4 most dangerous neighborhoods in these United States, (per semi-annual FBI Violent Crime statistics) shot distance and circumstance can NOT be accurately anticipated. With all the discussion about hitting power of the big rounds, That is not the case with the new loads. That said a handgun is only used to get to a bigger firearm..it was never ment to be used in longer than 30 meter engagements. Ill take an M4, even with the M855 green-tip ammo that everyone says sucks, over an MP40 or a Thompson or any handgun any day of the week. It got up and walked about 25 yards before falling. Steel BB or 0.177" lead pellet at 450 ft/s will burst a human eye. Is it comfortable for you to carry and shoot and are you accurate and reasonably quick in getting it from concealment to shooting? 12 shots fired. 10 Best ways to Make Money on Social Media and not waste time. Ammunition can really change performance. I also own both my fathers series 70 .45 (very accurate, low recoil due to mass, gunsmith tuned trigger that feels like butter, and extra fat grips) And a Kahr K40 (small, easy to conceal, but has a HORRENDOUS trigger pull and snappy recoil). Remember, people dont have health bars. 158 gr 0.38" Special plain lead bullet will generally not penetrate the outside skin of a car body. Think of hitting a person in the chest with a broom handle, then picture striking the same spot with a 5 lb. In that encounter, Sgt Gramins shot the suspect 14 times, any one of 6 of those would have almost certainly been fatal wounds. I can make a kill shot with just under 1 sec at 60 meters with my .45. Due to the heavy load some people with both types of weapons had malfunctions as the slide was moving too fast causing failure to feed. Fire Rate: 240 One had a 9mm one had a .45who is gonna get up quicker to finish the job. But only weighed 140 lbs then. Do Not Sell My Personal Information, If you need further help setting your homepage, check your browsers Help menu, Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness,, Lethal Force and the Objectively Reasonable Officer,, FBI Training Division Justifies 9mm Caliber Selection, supervisory and municipal liability in law enforcement. One round goes off, and you get a failure to feed. This represents a cultural shift in America. I am sorry for your incounter. Again this is my opinion and it is based on personal COMBAT EXPERIENCE. Ballistics engineers try to balance speed, mass, and surface area to make the most effective round possible. That alone could be a convincing argument to switch platforms. I own one of each 9mil Ruger,Capacity 17 rounds,CZ 45 10 rounds.For stopping power at close range ,I prefer the 45.It is harder to conceal because of its size and weight.The Ruger 9 mil is easier to carry concealed,And a whole lot lighter.Both are comfortable to shoot,to me.A 45 is not for everyone.If you carry concealed the weapon of chose is what you are comfortable with.Handling and performance,depends on the owner.The Military has been changing weapons since day one.I suppose it usually comes down who can supply what the military wants and how much they cost.I personally have handled the Glock 17 and the 19 and dont care for them.I prefer the Ruger or the CZ. This post reported that the FBI Training Division had reevaluated which handgun round was best for FBI agents and reached the following conclusions: The 2014 FBI Training Division Report stated that the FBI had chosen the 9mm bullet (147 grain Speer Gold Dot G2) for FBI agents to carry because, The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters.. cause if they did there would not be so many innocent victims being injured and killed all because they couldnt hit the side of a barn with a soft ball from 5 ft. The projectile is losing velocity and arcing downward. It was just announced by Smith & Wesson last week that they are out of the running for the contract. I recently bought a Sig P227 Tacops. Theres been many people shot and continue. Whats more, for those who are considering purchasing a firearm for home defense, but have not yet done so, it is important to know what kind of firearm is appropriate for your needs. Im no expert by the way but, I know that said air resistance on the nose of the bullet is NOT the predominate factor in any ballistics array. Although it should be noted that Glock is manufacturing in the US now, Sig Sauer is as well. I spent FAR more money letting her out every pistol they had for rent than I did purchasing her final choice. This recent policy change and operational change means the U.S. Marine Corps' special arm of SOCOM (U.S. Special Operations Command) has also come to terms with the debate of 9mm vs. .45ACP. That is those of us that has and carries guns. In the above GIF of ballistics gel taking a .50-cal. We do, however, have reliable information from labs with regard to how much tissue rounds destroy. Make your best shot number one. However, the .45 would likely be stopped from penetrating but there was a 30% chance, with good shot placement its energy could stop the heart. I have never fired a .45 but rarely find the grips comfortable when I pick them up. A 9 is a great backup. I have a medical issue that makes it easier for me to carry a double action in a very small package. In fact, thats what civil liberty defense ammo is all about. Indeed, physiological factors play a very small part in rapid incapacitation of a target. And I suspect it could very well be the Sig P320 as it is the epitome of modular.. I can concealed carry and the weight of my Ruger compact 9mm is about as heavy as I want. We had competant and caring armorers and shooting instructors ( These guys gave a fuck and went out of their way for you ). by Kyle Mizokami Key Point: These are the bullets that will do the 158 gr 0.38" Special P and 0.357" Magnum semi-jacketed bullets will penetrate both sides of a human skull. Everything from grip, shooting stance, limp wrist-ing and recoil spring pressure was examined. And it is acceptable to me that they made at least some of their determination based on the need to accommodate smaller hands. Like cars and motorcycles its all a matter of preference for each individual.God Bless America and May God keep us safe so we dont ever have to be put in a situation to have to find out. But honestly, if you cannnot conceal a 1911 you cant conceal a G19.. Thats a bs statement, I know this because I carry concealed and my 1911 conceals just as well as a single stack 9mm compact. Everyone talking about knock down power verses speed seems like. ammo. 25 ft same situation, I was surprised at 50 ft when my 45 actually tore the watermelon to shreds even more so than 15 and 25ft, the 9mm remained the same, 100 ft I actually missed 3 times with my Walther q4 9mm before I hit. Doctors later determined that this round was not survivable. I have not fired it yet but have dry fired it some to get back in tune. WebSearch: 45 Acp Damage Human Body. 3, both hemolymph ACP and AKP activities of P. clarkii were significantly decreased in the 30 and 50 mg/L groups compared to the control (P < 0.01).Similarly, PO activity also exhibited a significant reduction in the 30 mg/L group (P < 0.05) and the 50 mg/L group (P < 0.01), respectively.However, LZM activity showed a significant increase finds relevant news, identifies important training information, Having fired 45 ACP and 9mm at human targets the 9 took 3 sometimes 4 hits c.o.m. Fortunately, physiological factors are often not the deciding factor. Never had a jam up firing many different kinds of ammo. U.S. Navy SeaBees m60 & 45 caliber was my issue. Well, depends on whom you ask. Thanks for reading and commenting!! Concurr on 45 and m14 . But Im my opinion, they are tools! But are we supposed to believe the difference in air resistance between a 9mm and a .45ACP is that great? Handgun caliber and size is to each is own. He kicked in the door and she was able to disarm him ( He was lying next to the bathroom door. I think it is more the exception than the rule. Then moved to 10mm (after the 1986 Miami shootout). I dont plan on using a handgun for long distance shooting. I am a Force Recon Marine with 10 years of advanced military training and have served 7 separate combat tours. This, as with any other type of penetration test, is plagued with inaccuracies. Ben, enlightened folk like you (and myself) understand that politics is ALWAYS at play on some level!! But I have some serious doubts about his understanding of external and terminal ballistics. Just imagine what it might have been like had you had to perform a reload in that situation? All of this leads directly to the question of handgun wounding factors: the effectiveness of a handgun, lethality by caliber, and stopping power are all important considerations when purchasing a firearm for self defense. It is the concept that will underlie this entire article. Has the Marine Corp's choice to transition from 45 ACP to 9mm duty pistols settled the debate on which caliber is better? Any of these rounds will do the job in the hands of a skilled shooter, period. I Have hair and an angular face. and have shot that enough also to hit well with it. There have been several attempts by ballistics engineers to increase the wounding ability of a round. If the first bullet ricochets off the windshield, the succeeding rounds will make it through. And thats hardly re-enacting a self defense scenario. With the continuation of the pussification of America we see so many in posotions of power making decisions that follow the continuation of that thinkinhg. And fyi, if you are an expert at shooting a needle into peoples medulla, caliber is irrelevant until the large size becomes combersome. We are currently looking for shooting survivors to discuss their experience and their recovery. Some of the best handgun calibers for self defense are: To adequately understand the efficiency of incapacitating a target, we must have some basic understanding of the mechanics of wounding how damage to the human body works. and love a SA trigger. Mabe you are just faster and things work out like the movies. It was a contact shot into the center chest on a sleeping target. If you like and are comfortable with what you shot, then you will carry what you like. Please dont send me any hate mail. On a side note, this is the recent trend move away from larger calibers to smaller ones. Skorpion Ammo Type: 9 mm. Dr. Peter Rhee is a trauma surgeon who operated on victims of the 2011 shooting at a political event in Tucson, Arizona, in which six people were killed and 13 wounded in a hail of 9mm bullets. For example, a shot through the side of the body must penetrate between 10 to 12 inches to hit the heart.